Myths and Facts of Corporate Recruitment with Julian Ha

[00:00:11] Welcome back to another episode of The Political Life. This is Maggie Mick with Multi-State, and today I'm thrilled to introduce you to a new friend and colleague, Julian Ha, and I met in May. And last week when I was chatting with Steve Glickman, our recent guest, he said, you know who'd be really good on the show? And mentioned Julian, and I said, oh, I know him. I actually just met him. So I did think that Julian would be a fantastic guest,

[00:00:39] and I'm thrilled to introduce him to you all today. He comes about his political life in a different way and supports the good work of many people in political life, and I look forward to diving into that a bit. So because of the interesting road he's taken to his current career, I'm going to open our first question a little bit differently than we usually do. How did you end up living in Washington, D.C., Julian? Well, first of all, Maggie, thank you so much for having me on your show.

[00:01:09] And I hope that I will prove Steve and you right after this podcast in terms of thoughts that I will try to share and convey that will be useful to your audience. So I've been, I'm originally from New York City, but I've been living here in the DMV area for over 20 years. I moved here from, I was in London

[00:01:32] prior to this because I was a corporate lawyer as my first profession, but I moved to the U.S. in 2000, back to the U.S. in 2006, 2007 to join Hydric and Struggles, where I currently am. And we're an executive search firm and leadership advisory organization. We can get into that a little bit

[00:01:56] more. And that's what brought me back. I did intern during college at the U.S. Department of State in Ledge Affairs. So that was my first taste of Potomac fever, my version of it. And I'm delighted to call D.C. my home now. So corporate law to executive search. Take me through some of the history of your career. I think

[00:02:22] you've joked that you've actually had four different careers. What did those kind of chapters look like that would land you in an executive search role? Sure. It was actually no joke. I did do a few things before, after law, but before executive search. So after I graduated from law school in New York, I practiced at a firm in New York City, Paul Weiss, in corporate law and securities. That took me to another role with another U.S. law firm,

[00:02:52] Baker McKenzie, in Singapore. This is dating myself, but in the late 90s, I really enjoyed Singapore. But the Asian financial crisis, for those who might remember that, resulted in me either retooling as a bankruptcy lawyer or not. And I decided not and to stick with securities law. So that's what brought me to London. And again, in 1999, I joined a UK law firm,

[00:03:22] Linklater's, and enjoyed it very much. But then the internet bubble was inflating in London at that time in the early 2000s. And I just couldn't resist the lure of that. So my first non-legal job was actually with a startup venture capital firm in London that partnered with a firm here in the DMV area, FBR,

[00:03:45] for those who might remember, Friedman Billings Ramsey, and really enjoyed it. We raised a first-time fund from institutional investors and high net worth families. We're investing that in tech companies, internet companies, had a great experience. And that loops back later on to my angel investing activities, which we can also touch on if you want. But then the bubble burst in 2001.

[00:04:16] And so I shifted from that venture fund to a more operational role with a company that is actually still in existence called Capital IQ. Cap IQ, some of the folks out there may be familiar with it. We were acquired by McGraw-Hill, which was owned Standard & Poor's S&P. And so now it is called S&P Cap IQ.

[00:04:40] And it's used by many, many investment banks, private equity funds and firms, and anyone else who's looking for insight into data and companies. And I'll share why this is all somewhat relevant to get me to my current profession. And then after we were acquired, after my earn-out, I joined another startup. So my third startup,

[00:05:07] my third profession, which was investment banking. Again, still in London. This was a boutique investment bank, merchant bank, that was looking to help privately backed, VC backed Chinese companies raise capital in London. So we were doing private placements. We were trying to help enlist on the London Stock Exchange

[00:05:28] exchange and go back and forth. Again, this is mid-2000s. So this is when UK, China, US were all kumbaya and interested in each other and helping each other trade and grow. What brought me back to the States was family. Had our first child in London and wanted to raise a family in the great American

[00:05:54] suburbs. And always liked the DC area. I had friends who were raising families in Virginia and Maryland and DC. So I thought it would be a good place to land and to put down some roots. So then I had to figure out what to do next, Maggie. Most of my professional career actually had been in Asia and Europe and London. So I had to reinvent myself. So I

[00:06:22] spoke to a number of mentors, a number of former clients, friends, asked them what the heck should I do next. One or two people suggested executive search. I had no idea what executive search was, to be totally honest. And I think to be, if I'm being honest, most people still don't in the broader world. So this is where I'm here today to demystify the wonderful world of retained executive search. But it essentially is a

[00:06:48] professional service, just like banking, consulting, law. And we help our clients with talent needs, succession planning, recruiting, assessment, all things along the human capital stack. I found it intriguing because I thought it would be a way to channel some of the learnings that I had

[00:07:12] in the various jobs I had previously held, especially in the startups. Culture was the theme that really jumped out because one of the startups did very well. Another didn't. The one that didn't do well, I won't name it, but had, I think, a really good idea. But we didn't have the right culture. The one that did do well, Capital IQ, which was, again, acquired, we had a very good culture.

[00:07:38] We were very scrappy. We pivoted. We could, we were agile. And those were lessons around how important the human capital piece is. So I thought if I could do something related to that for my fifth act, that might be satisfying. Then I got into it and we can talk more about how I, you know, I created my practice. I lead our government affairs, corporate affairs and trade association work,

[00:08:07] which may be of some interest to your audience. Absolutely. But before we dive into kind of the current work and how you built it at the firm for young professionals who are, you know, again, you could demystify a few things on today's, in today's conversation, but the corporate ladder in other companies or in other countries. So what's the same as maybe moving to the big city in the U.S.,

[00:08:34] Chicago, D.C., New York, what's different? You know, if you're young, 20 or 30 something before you have children and you're living in London or building your career in Singapore, are there any cultural differences that you can recall or reflect upon that look different than kind of climbing the ladder in U.S. workforce? That could be a whole nother podcast, Maggie, but I'll try to shorten this in a Reader's Digest version.

[00:09:04] I think they're very different for sure, culturally and just systemically. Look, I'll be honest. I feel very privileged to have lived and worked in Asia and Europe. But the dynamism of the labor markets and the capital markets, human capital markets, as well as financial capital markets cannot be

[00:09:29] beaten in the U.S. It's simply just the truth. We, the way, again, I know, you know, can have a whole analysis around how productive are we in terms of our working culture and sort of 24-7. I'm not saying that's healthy, but there is a real, you know, you have to drive and you have to be

[00:09:54] impressed by how Americans can keep reinventing ourselves, right, in terms of emerging technologies, but now even manufacturing. I mean, we, I've served clients across all sectors, right, whether it's healthcare, financial services, industrial, fintech, you name it. We've, we've had the privilege of,

[00:10:19] of working with clients in all those areas. And to, to see that the talent that we still can attract and, and tap is, is super impressive. Yet not to say there aren't talented professionals and entrepreneurs in any of these other places. But I'm, when I compare it, I think there is something, there is something exceptional about the U.S. labor markets.

[00:10:48] And when you were making these kind of left-hand turns into different chapters of your career in different kind of subsets of kind of the financial services industry and law, did you, you were doing this organically without the help of a recruiter, like you do for a profession now, were these through relationships that were in current positions? Because you span a lot of different geographies. How, how did you make those jumps before you came back to the U.S. and did this

[00:11:16] work? Yeah. And I, I should, maybe that's maybe a good segue just to define what recruiters do and don't do, right? Because first of all, recruit, retain recruiters, executive recruiters, we are retained by our clients who are not talent, right? Our clients are the fortune 500 companies, the foundations,

[00:11:41] the, the, the think tanks, the academic institutions, anyone who is, you know, needs thoughtful planning around succession or growth or, or contraction. We are the ones, hopefully in those conversations, helping advise our clients on those, on those strategies. So long way of saying we don't represent

[00:12:09] executives, we don't represent, um, heads of Washington offices, trade association CEOs. We are hired by the trade associations. We are hired by the, the companies, um, the tech companies, the, the healthcare companies, you name it. They come, you know, they come to us, we go to them and we help them. Now we of course interact with talent every day, every single day. And I personally

[00:12:36] try to make time to get to know people, especially next gen, right? Today's number two, who will be tomorrow's, uh, number one candidate. Um, uh, but that's, again, that's just part of the, the, the, the culture and the ethos that, that, um, our firm, um, encompasses. Um, so that is, that is our role. So even if I had met a recruiter earlier on, they wouldn't have necessarily coached me on different

[00:13:05] careers or different options or different pathways. There are career coaches who do that. And I can refer friends and, and, and colleagues to people who can specialize in that piece, right? We don't write resumes. That's definitely not something that executive search firm recruiters do. We've, we look at them all the time. We review them so we can give a little feedback, but that's, that's not our job. So I just wanted to sort of put that out there so folks know how and when they

[00:13:33] can engage us. But in terms of my own personal journey, I kind of had to figure it out, um, like many people. And, um, but you know, through each one, I was trying to figure out what did I enjoy about it? What did I not enjoy about it? And that way it would help me figure out if that next opportunity was the right one to, to take a chance on or take a leap of faith, right? Again, you know,

[00:13:56] I, I went from a pretty well understood, well-defined profession, corporate law to a series of, you know, early stage, higher risk, but hopefully higher reward types and situations. And then ended up here in executive search, which actually is pretty entrepreneurial because like many professional services, um, folks, we, we build our own book of business. We, we hopefully build a following,

[00:14:23] um, and, and, uh, become known for an area of specialization that we can then help our clients with and also, uh, engage with, with talent on. So when you came back to the U S and joined Hydric, did they have corporate and government affairs? Did they have the practice or did you come in to build it? I can, well, I came in to first learn executive search. Cause I, as I said, I didn't know what it

[00:14:50] was about. Um, but I had talked to people who obviously had been either candidates or clients or both. So perhaps they saw something in that profession in me. And that's why they said, Hey, Julian, you should, you should look into it. Um, so when I first started actually, Maggie, I was, I cut my teeth on CFO searches, financial officers. That's why I learned the trade craft of search.

[00:15:16] Uh, and it's apropos though, given the other four careers that you started with CFOs, you spoke their language, kind of numbers people. I had dealt with CFOs and certainly fundraising and whatnot. So that's why I thought, let me start there because that might be a way to at least figure out, do I enjoy executive search? Am I good at it? Can I make a career out of it? Um, and I discovered after a

[00:15:42] year or so, two years that I really enjoyed what we do because we are, um, you know, we're a matchmaker, right? At the end of the day. Um, but, but I derive a great deal of, of, of pleasure in knowing that we've made a good placement, right? It's changed the life, certainly the life of the placement, but hopefully it will change the dynamics of the clients. And, and, you know, I can name drop a

[00:16:09] number of folks that our firm has placed that have gone on to have great impact in, in certainly in the, in the corporate, but also, um, you know, government and think tank and academic worlds. Um, so as I was figuring it out, I said, okay, this is something I enjoy. I, but again, I hope my, my CFO colleagues won't be offended. I wasn't necessarily jumping out of bed saying, I can't wait to do my next

[00:16:34] FP&A or tax planning search. Um, but I was looking around and noticed that for, for whatever reason, our firm at the time did not have any, um, work, any formal practice, uh, in government relations, government affairs, public policy, or trade association work for that matter. So you were in

[00:16:57] Washington DC at the time. I was like, what is our biggest industry, right? It is advocacy, um, to a great extent, um, politics. Um, and again, I, I certainly, you know, studied, um, politics and, and Asia and Europe, um, both in undergraduate, but also in graduate school and in law school.

[00:17:24] So I thought, Hey, this is a, this is something I follow anyway, that I really enjoy. Can I make this into a, a practice area? And there were, there are a few other firms that had, um, folks who were, who were practicing in this space. And I thought, why should they have all the fun? And so I took it upon myself to create this practice. And, um, we had the good fortune of coming across

[00:17:52] one search and then another one, uh, in that position. And once you do one or two, Maggie, you know, you're now the internal firm expert. So anything that's not invadingly government, let's give it to Julian or see, you know, is this something that he can solve for, for this client? And, and that's how we, we built it. Um, you know, one by one, one search after another, you're only as good as your last search. And so, uh, but I will say, I am super proud that my very

[00:18:19] first government affairs search, um, that placement, uh, I can even name check him. Marty McGinnis is still there 16, 17 years and counting. And, um, in fact, my son actually ran into him and he, uh, uh, my son was, uh, working at a trade association this summer and, uh, Marty somehow recognized him and said, Hey, are you, uh, you know, is, is Julian your dad? So that makes

[00:18:46] me super proud of it. Yeah. Yeah. The fruits of your labor. There you go. They're all out there. So I actually think that the establishment and perhaps need for the practice in Washington is a reflection of the maturation of the profession. You know, in the last 15 years, that's when there's been an escalation and a sophistication of the industry and the profession of state government affairs and even federal government affairs.

[00:19:13] Um, you know, it used to be like just the firms in town and then the corporation started to build their apparatuses in house and then state government affairs birthed in a very kind of mere way to federal affairs. Um, so yeah, I mean, there's been, there's been plenty of work to go around in the last 15 years. Oh, I can tell you Maggie, the, the, and I know you, you know this very well,

[00:19:37] the sophistication to the professionalization of this function of government affairs, both federal, state and global, uh, has changed so much for the better, uh, has evolved so much. And, and look, search firms, we've also changed how we do what we do, right? 20 years ago, 25 years ago, I think the reality is this is before the internet, before LinkedIn, before Google, before search engines,

[00:20:02] you know, the, the, the, uh, what, what most search firms were selling was just their little black books. Like, you know, these are our contacts, right? We're going to hold onto them. And this is our secret sauce that, that is completely gone right. And as it should be that that's not really what we are providing. I think good search firms are providing, uh, insights into the function,

[00:20:27] market trends, trends on talent, and really knowing the backstories of our candidates inside out, right? That you can't get with AI, you can't get with a surge, you can't get with LinkedIn. Um, um, and that is, I think where we have to constantly, um, you know, keep improving and, and proving ourselves and adding value to the process. And I do think we, we genuinely do because a bad hire,

[00:20:55] as you can imagine is, is a huge, huge setback and opportunity costs, uh, negative opportunity cost, um, that, uh, that unfortunately we've seen in some situations, um, in this town. And, um, that's why I'm pretty passionate about what we do and how we do it when you do it right. Um, but yes, the, the, the, the, and what's been so fun is the, the, the function itself, the government affairs,

[00:21:25] uh, roles, they are, you know, these are some of the smartest, most ethical, most informed, most switched on, um, executives, professionals that I've ever had the, the pleasure of, of working with, to be honest. Um, and, and that's why it makes this, this job so, so fun, right? Having conversations, getting to know people who, um, have served at the highest levels of office

[00:21:52] and, and, and, and in public service, but also in corporations, uh, and, and being able to, um, you know, pair them up with the right opportunity at the right time. And I want to talk about that opportunity cost and also the risk of when you're bringing on a new leader. But before I do just, you know, in terms of the industry and what you've seen, what are some other myths about executive search or even, you know, dilute, you know,

[00:22:19] diving a little bit more into the corporate and government affairs, any myths around this beyond the black book that you can solve today? Of course. I mean, again, the first myth that I wanted to just address and bust was the, the, sometimes the, you know, the perception that, um, talent is hiring folks like us to help them find the job. That is simply not what we can do or how we can do it.

[00:22:47] Um, we are, again, our duty of care to be clear is to our clients and these are the companies and firms and organizations that again, retain us to help them with a succession planning need or an assessment or a culture project. Um, you know, et cetera, et cetera. Uh, so, so talent should feel free to get to know as many of us as they have time and energy for frankly, right? Because we're,

[00:23:16] there's no exclusivity here. Um, that being said, I think folks, um, at least in government affairs, it's a relatively small world, Maggie, there, there are relatively few of us who do this as a, as a full-time major. And, um, so it's relatively easy for folks to get to know the players in our world that would hopefully have the right kinds of opportunities for the professionals looking to,

[00:23:45] uh, to, you know, keep advancing or to building on what they've already achieved. Um, the other thing I should mention though, to be fair is that, you know, we're not the only sources of opportunities, right? Many companies, organizations themselves have hired many people such as ourselves. And so we go in house and so we are doing talent acquisition on behalf of one client, right? One company. And,

[00:24:12] um, there are certain advantages to that, um, uh, for, for, for talent to deal with. But I do think having folks like us, um, also brings other advantages in terms of being, uh, being able to, to broker something that is fair. Um, again, we specialize, I specialize in these types of roles and,

[00:24:34] uh, a company, you know, may only hire one of these people, you know, at any given time. And, and that lack of insight sometimes causes, um, clients not to find the right person. And then, and then we come in and then we try to, try to, you know, come in and audit that and, and put it back on track. So

[00:24:57] again, not, not to sound self too self-serving, but, uh, there is a reason that I think folks like us, uh, at the level that we, we get to operate in will hopefully continue to, uh, to, to, to thrive. In fact, because I think at the end of the day, when you look at what is successful, what companies are successful, what sectors are successful, it genuinely comes down to having the right people,

[00:25:24] uh, and, and the right culture. Uh, and again, I've, I've been in situations where that wasn't the case and it, uh, no surprise did not work out. And then other situations where it's a great culture and we figure it out and we, we, we get there in the end. So when you're looking through the stack of resumes, every single job is different. Every industry is different. Every search is different,

[00:25:53] but through, throughout the course of the past 16, 17 years, do you see, do you see kind of what I'm thinking about in our audience? You've got the executives, some of, some of whom you, you know. Um, but then we've got the early state government affairs, um, professionals listening. And so what would you advise to them on what does a career that kind of pops off the page look like from kind of you

[00:26:23] reading through and meeting all these candidates? Like what would you advise to them as good learnings or good, um, moves that when you get to the executive level opportunity, you know, and I'm ready for it. You're ready for it. What does, what does that look like? It's a great question. Yeah, sure. So first of all, the great news, Maggie, is that, um, state government affairs is very, very much in demand

[00:26:48] expertise. That was not always the case. I'll be honest, at least from a, uh, a recruiter's perspective, right? Again, people would always be hired and retained, uh, who are state government affairs, affairs, uh, experts. But I, I would say in the last few years, especially this year at this

[00:27:09] moment, um, state government affairs expertise, the ability to unlock, um, things with state legislatures, with governors, with governors, with even county level, uh, is, is very much sought after. And that's partly driven by data centers that is driven by other companies that are targeting,

[00:27:33] uh, customers at the state level, at the mayoral level, at the county level. Um, that's not to say that federal affairs is not always, uh, in demand, but I have seen a flip, uh, we're, we're doing a few searches right now where I would say the state government affairs person will, will be the, the head of that function, which has not always been the case, as I think you can, you can attest to.

[00:28:02] Um, but because of, you know, just like all politics is local, you can say all advocacy is local. And, and therefore, uh, many of these, uh, folks who have, uh, grown up on the state affair side, um, have, are very much in demand. So I think- They're having their moment. I love hearing this. Definitely. And, and again, I've been very fortunate to have worked with the National Governors Association. Um, I'm also, uh, working with the U.S. Conference of Mayors. And so,

[00:28:31] you know, we're really seeing how, how those expertise and those, um, that stack of political life, uh, is, is, is very much sought after. It's permitting, it's citing, it's, it's energy access, it's water, you know, all these things that the federal advocate may not have been involved with at the federal level. Um, but, but for anyone, you know, in this function,

[00:28:59] in this profession, looking to hoping to advance, I would say focus on a few things, right? It's, of course, master your, your grief, understand your subject, your industry. Uh, and if it's an industry that you enjoy, you know, go as deep as you can in terms of really knowing it, because when we do a search more often than not, a client will say, well, I need someone who can hit the ground

[00:29:25] running, right? So if it's, especially if it's financial services or healthcare, um, all energy, they're all highly regulated, they all have their unique regulators, um, pieces of anchoring legislation that will, will guide, you know, how they frame, uh, issues. Um, and someone coming in as the head of that function will be expected to be somewhat fluent in those issues. There are

[00:29:55] occasions when we can talk about it, where they're looking for utility player, they're looking for someone who can bring a fresh perspective genuinely, but it's more the exception than the rule. So, you know, knowing your subject, knowing your industry, uh, knowing all the, the relevant, um, folks, I mean, people come and go, right. As you know, appointees come and go, administration's come and go,

[00:30:18] but knowing how to navigate and to get things done, um, is, is this, the portable knowledge skill set that I think all great advocates, government affairs professionals will, will develop. The second is frankly, team leadership, right? Many of the searches, almost all the searches that we're doing

[00:30:40] for heads of offices, it's not just knowing, you know, the industry, it's also leading a, a often very distributed dispersed team. You know, we, we, we have placements that are overseeing very sizable teams in all corners of the world. You know, the sun doesn't set on their function. And so

[00:31:02] they be, they have to be culturally fluent globally, you know, global mindset, be able to understand what is a, what is going to be an issue when their Brussels people are calling them or their Beijing people are calling them, um, or their, you know, Brasilia people are calling them. Um, and they need to be able to manage that. And then thirdly, being able to manage internally, right up across sideways.

[00:31:30] That's, again, these are all skills that one, uh, develops over time, but I think, you know, to try to answer your question, these are things that, uh, executive executives should be constantly thinking about how can they be improving their skill sets in subject matter, leadership and management.

[00:31:52] And have you found that in the managing over and above and down that when someone is so I've been in on the state side for 20 years and I'm seeing, and I'm 43 and I'm seeing my generation, a number of them become the new heads and a lot of them kind of positioning now to move from the

[00:32:20] regional leadership or a function like the political arm of a, of a team and are now wanting to move to the head. How do you discern when someone is ready for that next step up? Yeah, that, that is where it's a bit of the, the, the art of search where we, you know, we've, uh, you know, I've been doing this for long enough where I, I mean, I'm able to, I think, recognize some patterns

[00:32:47] around leadership and, and, um, ability to, uh, to step into these top roles. We obviously supplement that with referencing as well, Maggie, right? That's an important thing that, uh, folks should, should always keep in mind. I always counsel friends to keep a list of references, um, uh, on,

[00:33:11] on, on, on tap. Um, and, and that's updated if you will. Uh, and, and the reason they're important is when we get to an offer stage, all offers are contingent upon successful referencing. And you think of course, anyone that someone is going to offer up is going to say glowing things about that person. And that is usually the case. However, we, we are, we are trained to, uh, to, to listen,

[00:33:38] you know, sort of between the lines to look for signals. I, I, I, I take, I look for a few things. Do those references get back to me quickly, right? Um, does that, has that reference been prepped by the candidate? IE has that candidate called up their, their reference to, Hey, look, you're going to be getting call from, from Julian at Hydra. Um, I really want this job. I think I'm a perfect fit. Here's why.

[00:34:05] So, you know, if that person has taken the time and, and consideration to really brief the reference on why they are a good fit for this so that they can say good things about them to me, that, that means something, right? The worst reference is a very impressive name, but then that person, you know, takes three weeks to schedule. And then when I finally talked to him, they're like, Oh yeah, you know, he was in my office. I didn't really work with him. He's a good

[00:34:33] person. Yeah. That is just a negative reference in my mind. And not that I'm trying to poke holes or look for, for, for gaps. Um, but those are things I can't ignore. And so I really tell people treat the references very seriously because at least, you know, if it's, if it's a good firm, uh, you know, taking them, um, they will look out for these things, these flags.

[00:34:58] So much of, yes, so much of what we do in our political lives respectively is, is intelligence sourcing and information clearing. And it sounds to me like you don't do reference checks. You do clearances. Maybe. So, but, but then, you know, in addition to that, of course, it's, it's people who, um, again, you know, you can do thought leadership, right? You can, you can try to speak on panels and,

[00:35:27] and get your, your, your name out there again, as, as being seen as somebody who has, who's obviously not an order taker, but, uh, someone who can come up with, with ideas and a strategy, um, because that's what we're trying to solve for, for the client, right? Is this person going to take that function to that next proverbial level? Will he or she have the, um, the intellectual

[00:35:52] horsepower? Will they have the, the self-awareness? Will they have the leadership capabilities to work well with their C-suite, right? With the CEO, with the board. Sometimes these, these folks brief the board on occasion. Sometimes they even have a seed or, you know, again, the, and, and the function, itself, just to get back to that for a quick minute, it's been so elevated, right? Before it was like, oh, this is a DC thing. Our CEO doesn't really want to fly in. They didn't want to really,

[00:36:20] you know, now it's not, not a choice sometimes, right? Like you are, you are, you're, it's a command performance and especially, you know, in this day and age, um, how you navigate with, with an administration, with a governor, with state legislature, those are all scrutinized, right? And it's high risk. It's, it's a very high risk, high reward profession.

[00:36:45] Very true. Very true. And so I think just generally this profession, this function has been elevated. In fact, just internally, you know, government affairs used to be part of our legal practice, right? Because often many government affairs professionals report into a chief legal officer and general counsel, and they, and they still do often, but we, as of this year at Heydrick,

[00:37:10] spun out this function. So now I have the privilege of leading the global government affairs, corporate affairs practice. Um, because I think the firm has recognized that the function, uh, merits a standalone status because it, it is that it is the case in the market. Correct. Because they sit, you know, again, just one other story, you know, I would say that up until a few years ago,

[00:37:37] the government affairs professionals would be probably, you know, raising their hand and say, Hey, pick me. I can help you with this. Mr. And Mrs. CEO, uh, I can help you solve this. Now, I think, especially with, with Trump 2.0, um, the CEOs were like, okay, who's going to solve this for me? They're looking around and say, what, what's going on? What do I need to do? Um, how do I make

[00:38:01] sure that, you know, we, we are, we are, we are, our businesses is at the, has to see the table. Um, um, Oh, it's our government affairs people. So they're like going out and, you know, tapping their government affairs people, giving them the visibility, but also the responsibility and, and the permission to, uh, to do all the things that you guys have been doing all along, except now it's super, super, uh, you know, focused and spotlight is on totally. Well, and you bridged it

[00:38:31] beautifully. You and I actually met, you know, when you think, when you, uh, articulated the opportunity for thought leadership and to demonstrate external leadership as being, um, uh, a, a nice, uh, compliment to your kind of day job. You and I met, uh, at the public affairs council executive meeting this spring that, um, in May. And I have to steal the question that Kristen asked you, because I thought it was such an interesting, um, reflection. We were there speaking about how to

[00:39:01] navigate Trump 2.0. That was the title of the session. I came in from the state government affairs 50 state perspective, Jamie wall from Exxon mobile head of office came in from kind of the global perspective. And then you from the executive, um, leadership perspective. And Kristen asked you, how has, how have the pressures of the role changed when you were looking for talent during the time of Trump 2.0? And I would just love for you to share the reflections of the last two years on what folks

[00:39:31] have been looking for in those heads of office. Um, has it changed? Has it evolved? Um, I just, I loved that part of our conversation. Sure. I, well, I think the short answer is yes, uh, definitely things have changed. Um, there, you know, just to be very tactical there, there have been certain

[00:39:51] companies where the historical head of that, that office, um, has been identified with, uh, the other side of the political aisle. And, uh, I think this administration, um, is, is very, you know, joined at, at the hip and, and locked arms and, you know, will give certain, um, certain industries and certain

[00:40:18] folks, um, more visibility and more access, right? So it's just the political reality. And then other administrations have done that as well. Um, and I can think of some industries which, you know, had the red carpet rolled out all the time, whether it was say renewable energy or, or, you know, sort of consumer, uh, advocacy and whatnot. And of course, right now it's, it's other industries, right? Whether

[00:40:45] it's energy, whether it's, um, AI, SI, whether it's, um, uh, you know, chips and whatnot. So, uh, I think companies just have to be realistic in being aware that whoever is their face and voice in Washington cannot be a distraction, cannot be a, a, an impediment to the success of that organization.

[00:41:11] And again, good government affairs people will, will, will, will self-disclose like, Hey, I don't want to be a distraction. We need to bring in other resources, other folks who can, uh, do some of that liaison or, or face-to-face meetings so that, um, you know, we, we can be successful as an enterprise.

[00:41:34] So long way of saying, yes, I've been very busy and in finding folks who can have standing with this administration as, and also on the trade association side, we had the privilege of working with, uh, airlines for America, which represents all the major passenger and cargo carriers. Um, and, uh, we were able to recruit former governor, Chris Sununu of New Hampshire to represent that industry. And

[00:42:02] again, he, he has been working very diligently with secretary Wright and the administration, uh, and, and, and, and, and, and, and secretary Duffy, of course, at DOT on unlocking, you know, many things important to, to our airline industry, right? Air traffic control, modernization, um, upgrades, uh, everything along that, that, those lines. And, and Governor Sununu is somebody who has, has that, that ability to do that. So.

[00:42:31] And at a time that it has more scrutiny after the horrific airplane, um, accident of last year in Washington, um, tough job, big responsibility. Um, okay. Second to last question, um, in your own career through the mentors that you've had, or in just seeing so many leaders kind of cycle through

[00:42:53] your entire practice and evolution of your work, what are some incredible leadership traits that you take that you would want to, to, you know, look to or point to for young professionals listening as things to aspire to or, or inhibit in, in their career? Yeah. I think, look, these are not, um, uh, insights that I think haven't been probably already

[00:43:21] espoused by many others, but I, I do think, you know, this is a, this function, but, but any career, it's a small town, right? People will, uh, you know, you know, like they say, treat your intern, right? Cause someday they could be your, your speaker of the house or could be your future boss. Um, so you never want to burn any bridges, um, unless it's for the right reasons, right? It's some ethical

[00:43:45] issue or boundary. Um, but, uh, it, you know, I've seen many cases where people who really take the long view don't view, um, even our interactions as transactional. I try not to, and, and I hope that, you know, the, the ones who, who don't, um, they are the ones who will, uh, succeed in the longer term, because people remember that they'll remember how they're treated on the way up and the way down.

[00:44:11] Um, uh, again, I'll give you a very specific example. When we, when we, uh, re you know, present candidates and we're assessing them, I, I, I ask my, my team, um, my assistant, how, how did that person interact with you? Right. Were they, were they cooperative? Were they

[00:44:35] pleasant? Were they, you know, nasty to you, but nice to me, right? That is a, that is not how I think anyone should be, you know, would want to be treated. And therefore I would never want to present anyone who is, is, is, uh, is not thinking longer term. So again, just being aware of how, how you present

[00:45:00] yourself, how you treat others, how others, uh, interact with you and collaborate. Uh, those are just important things in general. Uh, and certainly in this, in this profession, which can be very, very small. I, I, I call candidates who, you know, I may have spoken to 10 years ago and I had a very positive impression and that's why I'm able to then present them. Others who may not have treated my team

[00:45:26] well or, or maybe disregarded the process or, um, done something, not disclose something right. That, that black balls and blacklists. So again, that's, that's, uh, just to never have a bad breakup, which can be tempting. You know, it's such a, especially in state legislative work, you know, you think that the world is, is ending. If something doesn't go your way at the end of a session,

[00:45:51] or if the ball breaks for you, um, in, you know, those, those last minute horse trades between a speaker and a Senate president. And I always advise, advise clients like keep the ball in the field. Don't burn down the Capitol because memories are long, but sessions are short. So if you have to have a breakup, have a good breakup, but you know, there, you have to be able to fight another day. That's absolutely right, Maggie. I completely agree.

[00:46:18] Okay. My last two questions are always the same. Where were you last on a trip, personal or professional? And what was the best meal that you had? So that if someone's listening and are going to where you were just last, they can have a fabulous, um, uh, uh, meal. And then where are you going to next? So if someone wants to reach out on LinkedIn and make a friend, um, they can send

[00:46:44] you a restaurant tip. I great question. Um, I was most recently in Miami and I had the pleasure of staying at the Biltmore hotel and I learned they have an amazing Sunday brunch buffet. So not to be missed. Um, I would highly recommend it's a, it's a beautiful property and the food was, uh, I won't

[00:47:10] spoil it, but, uh, uh, uh, smorgasbord of delights. Um, my next trip will be actually, well, I'm actually going to Arizona tomorrow to, to, to, to, for a, for a conference. So I'll probably be more beholden to the hotel food. Um, I will be going to London in, in, in a few weeks time for, um, there's a,

[00:47:35] I'll just end, I'll just mention it, you know, every profession has a, an association and ours is no different. Uh, there's something called the association of executive search consultants, AESC. And again, for your, for your listeners, um, if, if they are trying to figure out is this search firm a reputable search firm, they might want to look at AESC.org to see if that firm is a

[00:48:03] member of, of the organization to, you know, if they have our good housekeeping seal of approval, I have been the chair of that, that board. I'm now chair emeritus. Uh, so I've been with AESC for many years and we have our next summit global summit in London in a few weeks, uh, right before Thanksgiving. So I will be taking any recommendations on London, although I have lived there, but you know, it's been a while and, and, uh, it's ever changing. That is. Yeah. Yes. Well, safe travels.

[00:48:32] And thank you for the time today. Thank you for your support of making the industry of government affairs, a healthy body and a healthy community and appreciate your leadership. And hopefully I will see you on an upcoming trip to Washington soon. Thanks. Thank you, Maggie. It's been a pleasure.